No more GPS tracking.....

[artmart]

Oh my, I have found something that no longer works. GPS tracking. After you start it up and even with "Center on Current Position" enabled, the tracking works for a while scrolling the screen (if the scale is low enough) then ceases within minutes requiring a stop and restart to get it going again! Obviously this is a MAJOR annoyance.

I have used two different GPS' and two different methods that confirmed this problem and another tracking software (but the software is not as good overall) which works just fine. One is a handheld unit that uses the Garmin protocol, and the other is a "dongle" that plugs into a USB port using a 4800 baud serial configuration.

Then, I went back to RTN2012 and it's broke there too!!! This is about the time I would expect Xavier to pipe in on the "I told you so" regarding lax business practices.

I have used this function in the past, but don't remember what version (TLDCN2008? TLDCN2010?). I was on an AMTRAK train trip and using the GPS and TLDCN to track our location against the timetable. We've traveled by Amtrak in the past and their on-time schedule can be worse than flights. So we needed to track our location against the timetable to find out if we would make our connections. It all turned out well, but I didn't have access to the internet so didn't see the snowstorms coming around between Chicago and Virginia. That freaked out this Californian.

So other than the fact this drove me batty until I found the root cause, DON'T use GPS tracking on this software, cuz it ain't working. Better yet, does this work for anyone else? If so, please put up your hardware configuration. I am not real pleased about this, because I was testing things in preparation for another Amtrak trip and now have 4G internet to track the weather, too! We leave in a couple of weeks. The ONLY good news is there are no connections this time, but I hope we don't get in to town, too late, cuz that sucks, too (we were late by 8 hours once, but that's cuz the train broke down).

Traveling by train, while on the move and having your feet up and watching the scenery and being able to tell impatient, rotten kids we're NOT there yet, but here's where we are and this is how long it should take to get there (and also showing the train is going over 90 mph) is a hoot. It shuts the kids up, too.

[Ruby22]

Art, can't help you with the garmin device (unless I borrow one from a friend) but I have successfully used the 2013 version (and the 2012 version) many times with a generic puck (serial/usb) gps, it just says bu303 on teh underside, and an older pharos 500 (usb) that came with an old version of MS Streets and Trips. I actually used the bu303 puck as late as last week, for a short two-day trip, and didn't encounter any problems. The GPS was tracking continuously for are least 2-3 hours until I stopped it, manually.

I am not a gps expert, so I don't know what settings might, or might not effect it's operation, but I thought I'd add another data point.

[xavier]

No, he is not going to say: "I told you so" regarding lax business practices

But, as Ruby22 said, it seems to work fine on his system, so it points to some setting on yours! Is it possible that the USB port that these devices connect to is falling asleep? Check your power options.

[celabinc]

Has been working O.K. here with an old delorme yellow usb device on an older system running win-XP. I recall having some issues with rtn2012, but don't remember the details. I think it had to do with the gps sending the information way too fast for the old XP system to handle it and they told me to use some option (but don't remember which option). Didn't have to do anything with rv20013, worked as expected.

[artmart]

I should have mentioned I tried all three USB ports on the laptop. And there's not many setting to try. Like I mentioned, the Garmin uses the Garmin protocol and the dongle (puck) uses the serial protocol.

When it fails on my system, it lasts about a minute or two, then just stops plotting, so 2-3 hours would be great!!!

The new device I am using is a BU353S4 which supports the new S4 protocol. I bought this puck because it's so much smaller than the handheld as a plug in. I wasn't sure if it would be compatible, but that's why I tried my older model handheld GPS which worked in the past, and doesn't work now.

Wierd stuff indeedy.

Ohmigosh... I just thought of something. It might be the cable. I don't recall trying a different cable and I do have a few.

[artmart]

Whoops, I meant a different cable when using the handheld. The dongle has its own attached cable. The concern is that I ensure I use what worked before. The only thing hard to find would be the old software that it worked with.

[artmart]

I may have come up with a (the?) problem or at least something of what I was not aware. I changed the USB cable I used for the handheld and lo and behold, it started working. The GPS tracking never stopped. It ran for hours (huh?). A cable? No way, I'm not convinced since the other GPS used a completely different cable.

So I plugged the USB GPS back in and it started working too. Ran for hours and hours. Okay, NOW what's happening.

Wait a minute, I bought a new battery since the last time I did this. The old battery didn't last very long for the laptop. If I plug in the AC power cable (as if recharging the battery), then this is how both the handheld AND the puck were working. As soon as I unplugged the AC power the tracking stopped. Something is happening to the USB ports and causing them to stop working (like a GPS stops transmitting). If I plug the AC cord back in, and restart, then all works well once again.

This is definitely a consideration. I checked the system settings and I run the same for AC or Battery (no hibernating, don't turn anything off, etc.) however, the act of running on batteries kills the USB port under Windows XP. There has GOT to be a setting somewhere that can override, if I am on battery, I don't want the USB ports shutting down.

Does anyone know how this works? I am running Windows XP. Does anyone know if it works (USB port power is not shut off) different on another Windows version. Windows XP is about where Microsoft started getting this USB stuff working right, but maybe not as good as later versions of Windows.

Here's the rub. When I tracked on the train years ago, I ran the AC power all the time because the battery was weak and didn't last long. Since Amtrak provides 110v for everyone, I ran power off the train. Recently when it didn't work, I tracked when I went to Reno (about 1100 miles round trip) and ran off an inverter (12v to 110v) and this typically provided enough power but maybe not enough to power the USB ports. Maybe this will work on my next Amtrak trip is I don't use battery or AC not from an inverter. In the meantime, I need some help understanding USB power on a laptop running off a battery. Ugh!

[artmart]

Okay, so now I have a workaround for tracking when on Amtrak (and 110v is available), but I do think UnderTow needs to fix something since other programs work fine with tracking no matter what the power source. The other programs don't stop, unless I tell them to stop (or shut the system down).

[Ruby22]

Art, from what you describe, it looks like it's a usb powering problem, indeed. Not sure if it is a Win-XP issue, it could also be a BIOS thing, specific to that laptop (HP laptops were notorious for screwing this USB thing up). I am not a hardware guru, but I think you are right, MS got the usb management right about the time of XP. What is interesting is that you say other software using the GPS units appear to work and that makes it even more bizzare, because as far as I know software apps usually don't check "how" the usb is powered, only if it's powered, or not. But, like I said, I'm no guru, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

For what it's worth, when I was using the GPS (like I told you earlier, it was working), I believe I was using it with the system on battery, but now I have to pay attention next time I use it and see if that was indeed the case.

Quick question, have you changed the option to "Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power" for each USB root hub device in Device Manager?

[artmart]

This morning, I checked again and the other application "TOPO! - California" is giving me problems with tracking with or without the power plug.

It makes a lot more sense that when using a laptop, that one prefers NOT being plugged into AC.

I could not find the option for "...turning off this device...", but I'll look again since I do think this could affect it.

[xavier]

This morning, I checked again and the other application "TOPO! - California" is giving me problems with tracking with or without the power plug.

Let's see, are you admitting that you were badmouthing RV2013 and undertow because *they* need to fix something, but now you are finding it may not be them or their program that is causing the problem(s)?

Just saying...

[artmart]

Nope, unlike others, I don't feel a need to judge. You have selected only one part of my message to make a point, where the other parts of the message DISCOUNT the point you are emphasizing. By any chance do you work for the media? They are real good about leaving out important facts in an effort to gain sympathy or create excitement. At least I can tell you're just trying to make a "bad" joke. But shame on you for trying to use me as your pawn.

What I'm trying to find out is why something that used to work, no longer works. I am a firm believer that when things are right they should work and that in some cases when something goes wrong, another product should NOT be affected in a negative fashion. I have turned off the option for the computer to allow it to impact USB power and things are no different.

What I've been saying (and maybe for you Xavier, it's not enough detail), is that the Windows XP laptop's USB ports seem to affect how UnderTow's software operates and doesn't affect other software. Oftentimes there are several ways to use a function and it seems this may be the problem. I am just trying to report as many things as I am finding and when the findings are inconsistent I will report them.

In former versions of the UnderTow software I had reported a problem where if the laptop hibernated and GPS tracking was enabled, their software would cause the system to lock up. In current releases this no longer occurs. So there's hope that whatever was done to improve this, something can be done by them to improve this problem, too. It's only a bug that may get fixed, not a declaration that UnderTow gets flogged, reported to the BBB, or any other such knee-jerk reaction. I don't bad-mouth anything unless it's deserved. That's just not a smart way of doing things.

[artmart]

AHA!!! Good news. I found the copy of software that this used to work on. It's TLDCN2011!

I reinstalled it, started GPS tracking and it's constantly running. I can plug in the AC cord and NOTHING changes, it keeps on running!!! One thing I noticed is that on occasion I would hear the laptop beep (like it lost or found a plug-n-play GPS device). When using RTN2012 or RVPNG2013, this would cause immediate cessation of GPS tracking. With the old software, I would hear the beep, but looking at the screen, I found the tracking is still occurring. I hope this hint helps UnderTow figure out the problem.

I knew I wasn't completely nuts (at least about this) and suspected something in UnderTow's software was the culprit. Here's hoping they can figure it out, since they can look at the changes they've made between the releases and find where it broke (I suspect it broke at RTN 2012).

Now that that is figured out, the workaround for my trip will be to revert back to TLDCN2011 and use the new trip plan I made in RVPNG2013 to track timetables, location and speed with the small puck GPS. Since I now also have a 4G hotspot I can track the weather, too, since the Internet will be available.

This proves the problem is configuration dependent. This might be working for others (Ruby22) but not necessarily for my hardware. Thanks for the support.

[CorineR]

Seems to be working fine here with Windows XP-SP3 and a old garmin nuvi255. I have another system running win7, but haven't tried on it, yet. May be on my next trip. BTW, I didn't have to do anything to the USB power or anything like that.

[artmart]

Correct CorineR, basically the AC plug causes the USB ports to send a reset signal and THIS is what caused the USB consternation, but it should not cause software using the USB ports to stop; they should recover and keep running. I don't know any more than that.

I am using WindowsXP, on an old laptop and this used to work. I have been running TLDCN 2011 for a couple of hours now without fail! I plug/unplug the power all the time and it hasn't failed once.

[CorineR]

Yeah, I had seen you previous messages and tried that, i.e., had it plugged in, then after a few minutes unplugged it from the AC, then after about 10 min or so plugged it in again, etc. And I heard no beeping sound, or lost GPG tracking.

In all fairness, though, I tried *this particular test* with my laptop stationary, next to a window. So, although I got a fix, the arrow was not really moving much, just jumping around, but the flow of information in the GPS area continued to flow, without a break, so I presumed that I didn't lose connection.

You also mentioned that another program (TOPO ??) was also not working properly. Is it behaving the same way as undertow's? I don't really know how USB ports work and what the AC plug sends to it, but could it be a system-specific setting? Is it really supposed to send a reset signal, or is it some faulty hardware design, or like Ruby22 said, may be a BIOS screw-up?

[artmart]

CorineR... when you tried all your tests, the GPS must be tracking - the tracking is the issue, not the ability to plug/unplug. Trying the laptop, the arrow will jump around but in the same map location because you AREN'T moving. Put the laptop and the GPS and go drive around in your vehicle and the pointer should move around as you move around. That is what no longer works. After a time the window showing the readings of the coordinates will cease!

BTW - The other program is called "TOPO - California!". It provides topology maps for whatever region you want to pay for (I have California). You also have an option to use a GPS to track the location. I had mentioned I had difficulty with it, but that's because the laptop battery was almost out of power, therefore the laptop was having problems anyway.

Now that the battery is fully charged, "TOPO! - California" works fine (as it has been - look at all my posts where I describe that) while RTN2012 or RVPNG2013 do not work. I reinstalled and am currently running TLDCN2011 and it works fine as well. Regardless what is happening with GPS ports, Laptops, BIOS or anything else hardware-related, I intended this topic to report that the latest RTN & RVPNG NO LONGER WORKS for GPS tracking and I went through much effort to prove it.

All the other dialog was to try and find a suitable workaround with the latest software and there IS NONE. My workaround to use an older TLDCN gets me what I need, but I don't consider it a true workaround since RVPNG does not work.

Knowing what is wrong now, and discovering GPS tracking was first broken in RTN2012, this topic really shouldn't even be in this part of the forum. It needs to be a topic in RTN2012. I don't think it's a big deal to move it since the problem needs to be fixed in RVPNG2013, too.

[CorineR]

Wow, you are way too sensitive

This last test was run based on your posts, and I realize it was not a "good" test, but as I mentioned in my original response, the rv2013 and GPS have been running fine on my XP system, on all the trips I've taken in the last couple of months (4 different trips). If this information is useful to you, fine, if not just ignore it.

[artmart]

Sorry CorineR, that I might have sounded sensitive. I was trying to find out if you had used your configuration in the real world. You did so by your 4 occurences of tracking and using and I was hoping you weren't trying just the window test. I also missed in your first post that you alluded this.

It is helpful, in fact, it's matching what I'm now seeing here. Bottom line, if I want to use GPS tracking, don't use the laptop I have been using. While I still believe there is a problem, it is not solely UnderTow's after all. TLDCN 2011 now fails. I had it running (and tracking all day), then the battery went to below 5%, then the USB ports reset (they are some of the first things to go away when the battery gets, too low) and tracking no longer worked. In fact, it started to fail regularly even after recharging the battery.

I can now get 3 versions of UnderTow's software to fail on a regular basis on this laptop. The only problem I can see that UnderTow can address is why their software does not detect the loss of USB communication and then kickstart it once again, like TOPO! does.

The way this was verified was quite simple, it turns out. When the USB port is busy, the other tracking programs can use the device. As soon as the port died (this is a specific laptop problem as it turns out and is why no one else is seeing this), any other tracking program can use the device which means the USB port is no longer in use.

The way I verified this is ran the desktop for hours and I installed RVPNG2013 in my wife's newer Samsung Laptop and it's still running, thousands of scans later, even after closing the screen and reopening the screen, plugging and unplugging the laptop and the USB ports are solid and therefore so is the tracking, and it's still tracking on the latest software on the new system as I type.

The conclusion, to me, is that my laptop is showing its age. While it's only 7 years old, that's pretty old for PC hardware. The best thing for this laptop is that I send it to UnderTow so that they can have a worse case scenario that shows when a system has USB ports that hiccup, they can use it do improve their software design to recover from this. Unfortunately, most computers do not fail like this to warrant such an exotic fix or recovery. I don't have a workaround. What I have is a laptop that should not be used with UnderTow software. The bad news is the wife's 'puter runs Windows 8! I hate that release. I hear Windows 8.1 is supposed to be better.

Thanks to everyone who confirmed their configurations that worked. I need to get in touch with UnderTow to "call off the dogs" and offer to sell them an old problematic system that might help them make their software more robust.

[xavier]

I am not going to say anything, although you probably expect me to

However, I think the admin should change the title of this thread to "No more GPS tracking on old, malfunctioning computer", don't you think? Otherwise it's misleading to the user that reads the title but doesn't have the time to go through the very long thread.

[ROstmeyer]

Art, I am impressed with your detailed and thorough testing and with your spending the time to report your finding with such detail. I wish *I* had your patience and persistence. Thank you for sharing it all with us here.

[artmart]

LOL ROstmeyer, it helps that I'm retired and have a few resources available to me (like other computers and a couple of GPS units, and a whole lot of USB ports in all). It also helps that my former career was as a R&D Test Engineer for R & D companies. We had a joke/slogan we followed "How many Test Engineers does it take to change a light bulb? NONE. We just report the room is dark". From experience, it means, it might not be just the light bulb.

Xavier, I think there is still a problem and I'm hoping that with all this reading, one needs to consider the possibility that it is NOT necessarily an old computer that might be the cause. My computer just happens to have USB problems but even new computers can have that.

I think a problem still remains that other software continues to track even through the USB beeping on old or possible questionable USB hardware, and that's something I'm concerned about with UnderTow's Software. Without proper analysis tools I cannot specifically comment other than what's empirical. It appears that other software, might be reinitializing the port if it's been told to track and incurs a timeout, whereby UnderTow quits and doesn't retry when the connection is lost. This is NOT critical for UnderTow to resolve, but it is for a customer trying to use their software and some things work and theirs doesn't, correcting this would be BIG brownie points. Not everyone can just switch over to other hardware.

I will end with, it is NOT my responsibility to tell UnderTow how to expend their resources, but this capability would be real nice. It certainly isn't gonna stop me from using their software for other good features it provides.

[ROstmeyer]

Indeed, all the testing and the detailed reports make sense with your technical background. I forgot to mention that I have used the program on a toshiba laptop running windows xp and a usb receiver that came with streets and trips. no problems, no stopping, it has all worked as intended. And, I have on occasion plugged and unplugged the AC.

[artmart]

Good news... UnderTow may be on to something. They think they know the issue and sent me a patch. The patch worked... This old laptop relic is running just fine now. Now to take a few local trips (and with an inverter) just to be sure. My wife will be very happy I won't need to borrow her newer, faster, better system so she can Facebook while we are on the train (or in a car, or whatever else). But since it's got Windows 8 I didn't really want to use it anyway.

This was a computer-specific issue. I don't know why my laptop changed over a few years ago and I didn't have this problem. However, the battery was old and it might have to do with the fact I got a new double capacity battery that now runs for several hours and I've since turned off hibernating and power controls for the lid and power saving functions for as many system functions as I could find.

I may post what they found in these forums. What they described made sense to the issue I was having and I can understand why many of you might not see it. They sure are on the right track if they've cleared things up. Then we wait for the update with the fix.

[xavier]

Xavier, I think there is still a problem and I'm hoping that with all this reading, one needs to consider the possibility that it is NOT necessarily an old computer that might be the cause. My computer just happens to have USB problems but even new computers can have that.

My, my, how the roles are reversing when *we* have the problem, eh?

I haven't seen anyone else here having these problems, users are posting, "works just fine here...", which means that the problem appears to be with your system, but yet, you expect (want? hope?) that undertow somehow fixes this problem, that doesn't appear to be a problem with anyone else! Look, I really am NOT saying you are wrong in pursuing this. All I'm saying is that dad *I* been saying something similar to this, you'd be all over me about unreasonable expectations, and it's not their job to worry about hardware problems, etc.

Anyway, I think you know what I'm trying to say, so, we'll leave it at that. Happy GPS-ing